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My 2 cents (a long post)

Posted by: baronblacksheep on Aug 09, 06:27 in response to accountant_4_Jesus' post Ok, I'll try to respond to all of your comments:

Let's put aside the trolling issue raised in this thread and go back to the original point(s) made here.

As far as I can tell, the following points have been made to support the availability of guns (from handguns up to assault weapons):

1. It is a basic freedom and right to own a gun

2. "Crazy people" and criminals will always be able to get guns if they want to

3. We need guns to defend livestock / shoot pigeons / practice for the Olympics / insert legitimate sounding reason here

4. We need guns to defend ourselves from other people with guns

I know we've got a mix of at least Australian and US people in here, and I think an awful lot of these points relate to the US. To go through them one by one:

1. It is a basic freedom and right to own a gun

The argument behind this point is that by limiting the possession of guys some innate freedom is being curtailed. To my mind, the right to water, food and shelter are things everyone should have access to - I'm less convinced that access to gun falls into the same category. Ultimately a gun is something that some people would like to have legal access to, just like some people would like legal access to cocaine or acid or any other illegal drug. Gun control laws vary across the world, but since we are probably talking about the US here the right is conferred in the constitution. My understanding is that this was put in there a few hundred years ago to stop the British/French/whoever coming over and invading or an internal military coup. I'm not convinced that is a realistic prospect now.

2. "Crazy people" and criminals will always be able to get guns if they want to

Yes, they will. The question really is how difficult can we make it for them to get guns? If everyone has guns, then I'd argue that the easy is probably on a par with getting a Big Mac (ie very easy). If guns are illegal, then that becomes a lot harder and those wanting them have to pay significantly more for them. This obviously wouldn't stop a millionaire getting one to kill their partner with, but it may stop someone unemployed from robbing a bank with a handgun. I'm not a big believer in free market economics as a method of control, but in the UK (where I live) getting a gun is something that a social misfit would find very very hard - you couldn't just order it online or go to a gun shop.

3. We need guns to defend livestock / shoot pigeons / practice for the Olympics / insert legitimate sounding reason here

That works as a justification, but realistically what threat to your livestock could possibly need an assault rifle to kill that you couldn't do the same job with a shotgun or rifle? A giant grizzly bear?

4. We need guns to defend ourselves from other people with guns

Here's where the catch 22 comes in, especially for the US. The UK managed to fairly effectively outlaw handguns for civilian use, and by and large gun deaths are pretty low. Yeah, some still happen but it's the sort of thing that makes newspaper headlines everytime it does. With gun proliferation so high in the US, I'd argue that even if all guns were made illegal tomorrow you'd still have a massive quantity of guns available, therefore the argument is valid. Ideally of course you'd not let people have guns in the first place but the US seems to be beyond that stage.

Personally, I don't think people should be able to owns guns. Stabbings would still be a problem, but you'll always need knifes to prepare food so you can't really outlaw them.

For those people who were arguing in favour of gun control laws, take a look at this (hopefully it works): accountant_4_Jesus Aug 07, 00:16

You live in Australia right? Homicide rates by firearm have gone down since their 1996 gun law. {nm} Antibody Aug 07, 10:02

Nutjobs,lunatics and the determined dishonest will always find a way to get weapons {nm} blaze223 Aug 07, 10:12

Everyone's innocent until they commit a crime. That isn't even logical. Jane_Citizen Aug 07, 13:21

That quote is scary. People with strange personality traits can be prevented can be discriminated upon? {nm} elchan Aug 07, 14:19

No, the point is that they can't. So you don't know which person is necessarily going to be the one who (cont) Jane_Citizen Aug 07, 22:51

I'm in the process of getting my FOID Card wroberson Aug 08, 01:45

I believe we need to control what kind of weapons should be so easily accessible. However, I'm not for gun control in general. elchan Aug 07, 14:21

Ok, I'll try to respond to all of your comments: accountant_4_Jesus Aug 07, 16:11

Actually they have laws against some kinds of cars. They don't allow spikes on your wheel hub caps, and battering rams on your bumper. elchan Aug 07, 19:38

I prefer the freedom from being potentially threatened with a gun. Jane_Citizen Aug 07, 20:27

Chicago has very strict laws against handguns. They sound really safe from being potentially threatened with a gun. {nm} Tanker Aug 08, 15:13